Everything Wrong with PVP

Burst DPS (Panzer and Dogface)
Dogface and Panzer’s burst DPS is too high. They can easily kill a hero by themselves when they have a full clip and all their skills up. Sometimes they can even kill 2 or 3. Panzer is especially bad since she is so front loaded with her damage. Within the first 10-20 seconds of a game she can have 1, 2, or even 3 equally powered heroes killed. Don’t believe me?:

20 seconds in and I had killed 3 near same level heroes with Panzer. That’s 600k DPS with her. That’s insane. This leads to several issues in the game. First, Panzer is great as a min/max character. Take her to 10* then put her with a bunch of 5-7* and watch her annhiliate opponents. It also means she can be the ONLY DPS in the Ifrit/Flatline meta and is what helps hold that team comp together. All you need is Panzer to make kills. Without her there wouldn’t be enough damage to kill anyone with so many healers and support on a team.

Dogface isn’t quite as bad. His DPS doesn’t spike until you are 10+ seconds into a match and his bronze and silver come up. When they do it’s the same issu4e with Panzer though. He can easily eliminate 1-2 targets, by himself. No other heroes even come close to this kind of stopping power. Dog at least has lower hp and takes awhile to ramp up, but Panzer comes front loaded and have great hp and armor for her burst potential.

This is ruining the game for a lot of people. New, or weaker players are getting prayed on by high level players who min/max and have unfair advantages. A lot has already been said about this, as well as ways to help fix it, so I won’t say anymore here.

Hero Power
This problem is two fold. On the one hand some heroes like Nightingale have much lower power despite being just as good, if not better than other heroes. Meanwhile heroes like Matador have a bloated power level and they suck. They aren’t worth the increased power they bring to the table at all. This makes matching even worse because a team with Nightingale and Ifrit will always be a few thousand lower than other teams.

The best option here would be to look at each hero individually and adjust their power level accordingly. Panzer and Dog are the best DPS? Make them a few thousand more points than equally ranked and stared heroes. Ifrit and Flatline also on the team with Panzer and Caine? Make each hero more costly depending on good they actually are and suddenly the super great meta doesn’t look so great when they are constantly facing teams 5k points above them, despite being the same star and rank with their heroes. As is though, a 60k meta team facing a bunch of random heroes equaling 60k will destroy them, simply because the heroes on the meta are better for the same power.

Overpowered Heroes
Panzer was by far the worst, and still is really strong. Ifrit was also pretty bad when initially released but HH has been quick to react and adjust him. All the same adding these heroes and allowing people to buy stars for them has created a pay to win formula in this game that was never originally there. Sure higher VIP players and spenders still had slight PVP advantages, but they didn’t have heroes that granted them super easy wins.

I am glad to see initial reports make Wesson look like he isn’t that powerful, so maybe HH has learned their lesson. I’m all for paying players having an advantage, but they should NOT be guaranteed wins just because they bought the hero of the month.

Underpowered Heroes
As well as the OP heroes, there also is an alarming number of heroes in the game that are flat out worthless in PVP. Heroes like Castellan, Beck, Bolt, Fletcher, and Ronin are some of the worse offenders, though there are a whole slew of others. I understand not every hero will be great or even top tier, but with 61 heroes in the game now more than 15% should be usable in competitive play. At least a third should be really competitive, and half should be at least somewhat useful in PVP.

The biggest issue right now is only Dog and Panzer are any good at PVP. Some other heroes like Odachi are decent, but most of them lack any sort of real damage or burst, and almost all have very low hp meaning they die almost instantly. Something needs to be done with AoE abilities because, atm, they are garbage and easily avoided. A perfect example of this is Maven.

Maven suffers from a number of issues. First off she has an AOE that barely does anything since most AI and players move out of it almost immediately after it lands. Her Hallucinate is also dodged fairly easy. Then you have the random nature (talked more about below) on her Miasma. It will hit a random target and who knows how useful it will be in any given match? Finally is her super low hp, making her easily targeted and killed by most heroes. Maven is actually incredible DPS in PVE, but when it comes to PVP she is garbage.

Random Skills and AI
Randomness is a competitive game’s worst enemy. I might play significantly better than my opponent, but if his Mandrake’s stun misses, Clyde’s Quickdraw doesn’t land, Surge’s lift doesn’t goes off, and my AI decides to try and all kill their own targets rather than focus at all, I probably just lost. On the other hand if the stars align and all my skills go off and my AI all focuses one target I can have them dead in mere seconds.

Why there are so many random skills what are so all or nothing is beyond me. In a game with competitive PVP and rewards based on rank, this should be addressed. A little bit of random nature can be good, but skills that are so all or nothing are just bad for the game and I believe a reason a lot of these heroes do not see as much use.


I agree that Dogface and Panzer are good for min/maxing as it is today with no limits. But Panzer and Dogface are some of the few that can actually kill someone in the meta ifrit/flat/cain/heimlock/Night setup in a balanced PvP match (my experience is 60-70k matches). Without good DPS shooters all would end up in ties. The example you show is not a problem due to overpowered DPS, it is a very clear example why you should not be allowed to have a 9star plat together with a 5 and 6 star gold, and by the way the team you are playing against is a bot with an awful setup, you should play around 55-60k with the heroes you have.

Then why are you doing it knowing it ruins the PvP for a lot of new and weaker players?

Agree, more of the unused players should be improved. Stop shouting for further nerf on the few DPS heroes we got in the game, it is still a heal/revive meta ongoing so the problem is clearly that we have too few good DPS heroes…

That may be so, but it’s irrelevant to this particular point. My team is made up of largely under powered heroes. Maven and Gammond are hardly carrying any teams. Panzer hands down was the reason that match went so fast with her 600k DPS and killing 3 heroes in under 20 seconds. I’m not sure how you can see that and not think her burst DPS is too high?

Also, if other things were fixed like DPS AI, other DPS being buffed, etc. we wouldn’t need to rely on two OP DPS to carry the game. Other heroes could do great damage and you could actually run teams with 2-3 DPS, 1-2 healers, and a tank like you are meant to.

Almost every team I face is min/maxing to some extent. I rarely face players who aren’t. Also, I wasn’t min/maxing in the above screenshot, those are the heroes I just happen to have left from my main team(s). I would never use Gammond and Maven in a proper min/max team.

Regardless, when I DO min/max, it’s because playing in my regular bracket is a joke. It’s all 60k Ifrit/Flatline/Panzer teams which my team has trouble beating. Since I am only VIP 5 and don’t spend a ton on this game I don’t have a 8-9* Ifrit, Flatline, or Panzer, and therefore am at a severe disadvantage. What else would you suggest I do? Play 3 games with my main team, get beat, then call it quits?

This is your problem, not Panzer or Dogface. I am looking at your heroes right now and it is very unbalanced and you are lacking some vital healing/reviving/support together with the 9 plat heroes you got. I see old good heroes like Gammon & Maven up there, they are not good anymore after nerfs (I’m still upset on the firsts Kill Shot nerfs on Gammon many months ago as I had then build up strong PvP team around him like you and the nerf was totally uncalled for as he was more than beatable and accessible for all from PvP store that time, they even managed to nerf his healing later on as well so now he is just a chunk of meat out there) and you should really build up other heroes in the same region. You got a lot of work to do building up your Odachi, Caine, Flatline, Ifrit, Phoenix, Halo, Hardscope, Mauler to be able to choose a better team. Don’t further build on the few plats you got as the unbalance in your heroes gets too big.

Your Maven and Gammon did almost as much damage in the example above you are showing.

I’ll repeat:
Agree, more of the unused players should be improved. Stop shouting for further nerf on the few DPS heroes we got in the game, it is still a heal/revive meta ongoing so the problem is clearly that we have too few good DPS heroes…

Try switching between your heroes to maximise the effect of each hero. Once you learn the timing on skills and such, this becomes a very effective way to ensure you get the most out of each hero.

Umm, I am doing just just fine with exactly that. 2dps (midline), 2healers (1 frontline & 1rearline), 1tank (frontline).

Panzer, Phoenix, Heimlock, Razorback & Ifrit … if you were curious.


Actually it’s everyone’s problem. No one has found a really good counter to the Ifrit/Flatline/Panzer meta. Most people just use it themselves if they are able.

I’m not really sure what you are talking about. I already acknowledged I don’t have easy access to Flatline or Ifrit, being a largely free player and only VIP 5. That is why they are lower. I could start focusing on Flatline with Gauntlet, but she’s really far behind because she wasn’t that great until recently. I do have Mandrake, Heimlock, Nightingale, and Panzer all 8* and working on 9 for them. They are all currently part of the meta. The only ones I am missing are Caine, Ifrit, and Flatline who, like I said, I do not have easy access to.

The rest of my team is the current meta besides Gammond and Matador. I only have them leveled up so high because they are getting close to 10* and I am going to use them to pump frags into other heroes. Maven is leveled up because of how easy she is to level right now and being a faction of the month hero. That’s actually the case for most of my heroes. The ones that are leveled up are all the PVP or Gauntlet heroes that I have easy access to.

I only have a single 10* hero so I am not getting much heronim right now to sink into a lot of those heroes you mentioned. How would I get Halo or Odachi leveled up? There is no reliable way to star them up beyond heronium, or the 100-200 frags I get per week from PVP and alliance crates. When you have certain factions each month demanding your attention it also makes it hard to focus on much else when you are F2P.

Maven is a star higher and has way less survivability. She still scored 100k less DPS and has 100k less hp than my Panzer. Gammond is also a star higher and did about 150k less DPS.

Just to be clear, having a few super OP heroes and then a bunch of crappy DPS does not make for a good game. Even if Odachi, Maven, Hecklar, Bolt, and whoever else were buffed, they still would be far behind Panzer and Dogface. If they DID get buffed to Panzer/Dog levels, then we would be back to where we were a few months ago with 20 second burst matches. Since the developers obviously want to get away from that, I think my suggestions are a good middle ground.

Nerf Panzer and Dog slightly. Increase the DPS (and maybe hp if need be) considerably on a handful of under perfomring damage dealers. Nerf some of the reviver/healers slightly. Fix some of the other issues I brought up like the poor AI for DPS. Panzer and Dogface are just ruining the game. The Ifrit/Panzer/Flatline meta wouldn’t work with a nerfed Panzer. She wouldn’t insta kill any energy DPS. She does far more damage to energy damage dealers than she does energy healers since damage dealers don’t have the same survivability.

You keep thinking I want to just nerf Panzer and Dog and then leave things as is but that is NOT the case. I want a bunch of other DPS vastly improved, and the healers and revivers nerfed a bit. That way we could have 10-12 strong DPS heroes and 4-5 support/healers/revivers that are all usable.

I already do this, trust me. I start with Panzer, then after I unload my first round and a half I switch to Dog so I can use his silver and bronze skills.

You are also running a 75k~ team that is all 10* and plat,or +2 plat. That’s great for you, but most people aren’t playing with such a bloated roster.

I hear ya Deathleech but your suggestion contains too many moving parts and it needs alot of precision in execution. In fact, for HHG to do what you suggest there could be multiple cock-ups along the way.

Basically your idea is

  1. Nerf Panzer and Dogface slightly
  2. Nerf the health/healing/rezzing meta
  3. Buff some DPS guys

What happens if HHG does not calibrate 1, 2 AND 3 properly?

If they overnerf Panzer and Dogface ----> No DPS options to punch through the healing wall (let me tell you, at high levels this is very much a concern and you’ve just brushed it aside. Not cool bro.)

If they overnerf the health/healing/rez meta ----> We go back to 30 second matches

If they overbuff or underbuff DPS options AFTER doing 1 and 2 —> we end up screwed with either too much DPS or too much healing again.

Actually out of your 3 suggestions, you only need the third suggestion - DPS buffs - to balance everything out.

This is so much easier to do because HHG already knows how much burst damage is needed to effectively bust through the healing wall.

No “gut feel” or “best guesstimate” calibration would be needed. They can straightaway apply the right numbers to the energy heroes like Heckler/Ronin/Sapphyr/Oro and the bio heroes like Cinder, etc (they’ve already sort of done that with Phoenix recently over the last 2 patches, just FYI).

And they can achieve this with VERY LITTLE RISK OF IT GOING WRONG.

So let’s have some DPS options, HHG.


Well, I wouldn’t ever expect them to try to address everything I listed simultaneous. I think they should do it in the reverse order you suggested…

Buff under performing DPS
Nerf healing/support… if needed after DPS buff
Nerf Panzer/Dog slightly

While doing this, address the min/max, hero power levels, and AI in between. AI should be addressed after DPS get’s buffed, again if needed.

A lot of people seem to focus on the Dog/Panzer nerfs I mention and crap themselves without reading any further. I never would suggest nerfing either of those heroes in the current meta without some major changes to other heroes.

My Panzer/Dog nerfs aren’t even that severe, mostly nerfs to their clip sizes. This way they can still burst down a hero when they have everything up, they just can’t burst down multiple heroes when they are facing teams that aren’t the current meta.

No they can’t, that’s what we have been telling you over and over again. Maybe at 25-40k yes. But when you go higher and face the 8-10 star plat Nights, supported by Drake/Heim/Phalanx/Keel etc… it is totally different buddy. Don’t be so quick to think that there is a one-sized fits all solution.


So actually we’re in agreement then!

HHG do ya’ll hear that, we need DPS options FIRST.

Even Deathleech, who is asking for Panzer and Dogface nerfs, says we need DPS options FIRST.

So let’s get that done FIRST, thanks y’all :slight_smile:

What comes after the DPS buffs, we can discuss later on.

I do play 8-10* teams… my main team is around 60k and I will face teams in the upper 60k range. Night and Caine can usually be killed in a round of Fire at Will followed by Heavy Call (36 hard hitting shots in less than 15 seconds). 10* plat Night dies pretty quick. Granted any bio heroes are a pain and can’t be burst down the same way since they take reduced damage, but ya.

Regardless, why should a single DPS be able to burst down a healer with minimum 3 other healers/support? That doesn’t seem… off to you? I get the current meta is screwy since only two DPS are really viable and it’s so healer-centric, and this is the only way to get kills currently. However, with better DPS heroes, and more of them, I would hope they can contribute more and actually get shit killed without the burden all being placed on one of two OP DPS heroes.

Once Panzer / Dogface is taken out of the equation … than there is no viable Dps against the heal and revive meta. Clyde has been relegated so far down the line, in face with panzer / dogface … Clyde is only but a shadow.

Should Panzer / Dogface be further nerf, how will one team burn tru the healing.


@Deathleech Please take your driver license before blaming the car that you crash all the time. And your first car should not be a Ferrari, you should start off with a regular car to learn to drive. It might be an idea to first ask a driver instructor for some guidance instead of coming with some far off accusation that the road shouldn’t have had had a sharp turn while you pushed the pedal to the metal.

Your top team is so easy to beat that most could do it on Auto, and you have few or none viable alternatives. Thats your problem.

Very wrong, you don’t have time to do it with Dogface as after 30 sec when you are ready you are already in problems. Even my 10* 2 bar Plat Panzer have huge problems with Night, as you need 6 bullets to break the cover and she is back line so the distance makes it hard to hit, if she moves you have to use another 6 shots just to break through the wall. She will have around 400k HP and she heals together with many others supporting her. This is with the Hero which are a Mech DPS player with the advantage of the start of the game versus what should be a weak Energy healer

NO!!! If you can’t kill one Hero during the match what is the point, you got to kill the same Hero at least once more with Ifrit/Flat as well.

Agree, More DPS…

Ifrit has been available i Dojo for a month… help others with raids is an option. Flatline is available in Gauntlet store. And you have had frags to use building up your Fortress to 8 star, Heimlock to 8 Star, Razor to 7 star, Nightingale to 8 star, Panzer to 8 star… You could have had a solid 7 star balanced PvP team if you had spent your fragments differently.

Sigh… Stop repeating a request which would ruin the game, this have far wider consequences than you could imagine, quite many of us knowing how to play PvP have explained why several times.

I honestly think this forum should show a link to each of the posters Hero Lineup, so people who read posts with bold statements and requests understand the basis these comments are coming from. It took me 1 second to understand your issues inspecting your first page of heroes, and the issue is obviously not DPS heroes like Panzer and Dogface at all.


I’m sorry to say this but to me it feels like you go on and whine about how unfair this game is because your heroes isn’t balanced well enough even though you’re a vip 5. I’m a vip 1 and get by just fine with the frags I get from pvp gems and tournaments, raids and other events. I have probably played a lot longer than you and have that advantage of having been able to collect more frags and items than you.

I don’t think calling on nerfs isn’t the right way to level out the playing field. I think we all should be glad that Dogface is good because he’s so easy to access that ALL players can enjoy him, not just high vip or the long time players but ALL.

As may others have said the best way to ensure a more even playing field (without totally wreak the current good/decent heroes) is just to buff the under preforming current dps heroes.


I understand Deathleech’s point though. Panzer and Dog ARE overpowered within the context of the game as it stands right now and it’s solely due to their burst potential. The answer isn’t necessarily to nerf those guys even more because right now, they are the only two reliable options for breaking through the heal & shield meta (which has loosened its grip slightly with nerfs to Ifrit and Flatline but it is still the dominating loadout in PvP).

Aside from fixing matchmaking by setting some team comp limits with regards to stars/bars and removing skill levels from power equations, I genuinely think HHG could level the playing field by simply increasing every other DPS characters damage. By a LOT. LIke a 30%-40% bump for most characters like Maven, Heckler, Clyde, etc. Because they rely on sustained damage rather than burst, they need the extra firepower to keep up with Panzer/Dog. Those guys would still have their place (Panzer for early-match DPS and Dog for 30 seconds in when most skills have charged) but it would let other heroes actually contribute in a meaningful way.

If that’s just not practical, I don’t see how else to bring other DPS heroes in-line with Panzer and Dog other than to nerf them. But if HHG did that, they’d also HAVE to nerf healing across multiple characters and potentially rework with both resurrection heroes to swap those skills for something not as insanely frustrating as revives. Either way, they’ve really painted themselves into a corner when it comes to PvP because we’re sitting on a huuuuuuuuuuge pile of worthless heroes.


The whole rez dynamic should be added to the list. Rezzers should NEVER be allowed to rez other rezzers. Also, all skill charges should be reset on death. There is nothing more frustrating than killing Flatline, yet Ifrit manages to get off a last rez even as he’s having his face pounded in with a high caliber jackhammer. Then almost as quickly as she reappears, that little heart :heart:️ icon we all hate appears over Flatline’s head and…YAY…Ifrit’s back. It makes me want to throw my phone.


I like this idea, would defiantly be a solution to the heal/revive meta.

Agree, this would be another solution to the heal/revive meta, still not sure what %'s would be correct, but adjusting weak Heroes should be done. If done correctly we get a much more versatile game to play.

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Yet again, I am not sure why you bring this up as I am fully aware I do not have the meta. I even went into great detail last post explaining I do not have easy access to the flavor of the month heroes and it takes me a lot longer to get a hero powered up than someone who has paid to win. Panzer I have been focusing on since shortly after her release sinking all mech frags and some universal into but she’s only 8* currently.

You definitely are over exaggerating as Ifrit/Flatline are the only two heroes I am missing to make my team truly competitive in the current environment. I haven’t bothered getting either to plat because what’s the point when they are 5/6*? That doesn’t mean I don’t face them constantly on other teams though. I face 64-68k teams a lot and do decent enough despite me being lower and despite my team not being the meta.

Guess what though? I want half the characters I run on my team nerfed in some way, shape or form (Dog, Panzer, and possibly Heimlock). If I am missing Ifrit/Flatline, don’t you think I would want them nerfed more? I can actually see beyond my own needs though and what’s best for the game. Can you stop bringing this up now, or are you going to a third time after I have addressed it twice already?

Everyone seems to be so worried about losing Panzer and Dog that they aren’t actually reading my post. They just freak out thinking I want to nerf the only two viable DPS without sweeping changes. Of course if that happens there would be no kills happening in a stale game environment where it’s already difficult enough to get any kills. But, having two heroes, each capable of getting kills when a healer is supported by minimum 3 other healer/support is a problem. They are obviously OP. To get kills vs a 4 heal/support team you shouldn’t be able to do it with a single DPS hero on your own team. It should take at least 3 DPS to cancel out the 4 healer/support.

Again though, I get just nerfing Dog and Panzer would ruin the current game and lead to no death matches. That’s why I want to nerf them AND buff other DPS, AND possibly nerf some of the healer/support in the game. Please pay special attention to this part as you seem to consistently miss it and just focus on the nerf Panzer/Dog part each time.

Even if I did twice as many Dojos I would still have him at 6*, maybe 7. I have tried to “help carry” people though and it’s a pain finding anyone with how much everyone spams VIP. Not worth the effort imo for 5-10 extra frags a day. I could have sunk every frag I have gotten into him and he might be 7 (already sunk a few hundred in). I opened several crates for him and never got any Ifrit frags.

Regardless, you do realize most of the heroes you mentioned were leveled up BEFORE this month, right? Not everyone spends thousands of dollars on this game and can instantly get a hero leveled up. In fact I haven’t tried for ANY frags for Razorback other than the last 20 or so I needed to 7* him (which I got by doing his hard mode for a week). Most were gotten in crates and through the Razordome event. I haven’t focused on Fortress since before Panzer was released.

Also, why are you even mentioning this when you have 10* Matador/Fortress/Clyde, etc, but only 9* Ifrit, Heimlock, and Flatline? Maybe you should take your own advice and focus on the meta? :joy:

I actually do quite well for how little I play PVP and how few advantages I have. I usually run 10 heroes, don’t bother with any others, and place around 1k. I don’t have extra hearts or resets, not that I use resets at all anyways. In fact I usually don’t even use all the hearts I have. You have been playing over 2.5 as long as me and have several 10* hero so it’s MUCH easier for you to get heronium and sink it into the flavor on the month hero. Imagine how hard it is for even newer players??

Also, Dog is my only 10* hero currently, I use him constantly, yet I can see how he is hurting the game. I still think he should be viable, if not a top DPS. I just think he needs a slight nerf once other DPS heroes are buffed.

@Deathleech I think you have done OK in PvP before the Health & Healing + Ifrit introduction also at 60k+, but now its almost a requirement that you have the ifrit heal/revive meta to be able to win unless you meet others who don’t have that setup, which is not many at this level.

The problem is not the DPS we have been telling, its the Role Warefare update, where several healers got better while Gammon’s heal was nerferd. This combined with a lot higher health on many Heroes and the introduction of Ifrit. I’m sure you are not the only one having this issue, building a strong team then suddenly the world is upside down, and good Heroes are not good anymore. This being a big issue with the time/effort/money/frags it takes to build these heroes to 9-10 star platinum.

This is a perfect example of when to and when not to upgrade your Heroes. I have ifrit/Heimlock/Flatline “only” at 9 star, you could also add Caine to that comment. I will not upgrade them yet untill I have enoguh frags to upgrade all at same time to not go too high in powerlevel before I have Heroes ready to support this level. I miss 1500 bio frags and 800 Mech frags to do this (As I also want to upgrade Colonel Wesson at the same time) to do this. I could upgrade Flatline to 10* and Caine to 10* today if I wanted but I want to upgrade all simultaneously to not power up and miss vital Heroes at next level. This will then give me enough 10* heroes to be able to compete at 76k+ and not rely on only 5 heroes to succeed, we do expect changes in the game to come so not to gamble all on the minimum heroes.

And yes I have Matador/Fortress/Clyde at 10* (also Gammon and Maven), none of these 5 I use ever in PvP because they are not good enough, but they all give me Heronium in the PvP Store and Gautlet so they serve a purpose. I would love to be able to use them in PvP but then I will start with a big disadvantage to all the good players I meet in PvP matches and heavily increase the chance of loosing.

Well ya, of course I did better before they introduced the pay to win heroes (Panzer, and then Ifrit). That’s a whole nother issue with PVP though. I thought the extra advantages higher VIP players got in PVP was enough (25% more hearts, more revives, more hero frags), but I guess not.

Also, I was well aware you had your reasons for leveling Matador/Fortress/Clyde/etc. I was being snarky since you just assumed I was still actively working on heroes like Razer, Gammond, Fortress, etc. The only one I actively work on is Gammond, who I am trying to get to 10* for the heronium like you have done. The rest I leveled up before they got nerfed, or through events. I haven’t spent a single universal or energy fragment on any of those heroes in months though.