95% win, I I’m not trying to get a score
Saiko, ok, different strategy, trie his one out, record it and show it
Sorry community star, you’re to positive.
I don’t agree
The biggest problem is that nobody even agrees on what Min/Max means.
Lots of people seem to think its throwing a 10* plat in with a bunch of bronze or silver trash and trying to win with that.
Others seem to think it involves focusing on stars/promotions/levels while avoiding the other two.
People see my 55 9* Gold Mandrake or my 55 10* Silver Gammond and think “AHA! This is his secret to winning so much!” The reality is I’ve already spelled out the three main problems here but they were all fairly long, dense reads without any rage-worthy screenshots so people barely noticed:
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Hero imbalance. A handful of heroes are significantly stronger than all the rest, if you are not using these heroes on your team you are at a disadvantage.
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Poor AI for DPS. The more DPS you leave in the hands of your bots, the more you are likely to lose. The player is such a significantly better decision maker than the AI that it makes it borderline suicidal to trust a large percentage of DPS with bots. Meanwhile support heroes who are valued more for CC/Healing/etc. than their damage make for reasonably competent AI. It’s probably the single greatest reason why “healing meta” teams will trounce more damage-oriented ones. I’ve covered this in detail in another thread.
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Most passive skills do not come close to justifying their power cost. Golds at 75 cost 900 power, Platinum costs over 1,100. That is comparable to the power of one star, which typically increases your damage, health, and other skills by around 15-20%. If you had to choose between most hero’s gold and plat skills or a 20% increase to all stats, how many heroes would you still take the Gold/Plat for? The answer should reflect about how many heroes have truly worthwhile passives. Mandrake, Butter, Sentry, Caine, Keel, Flatline, Ghoul, Heimlock, and Callidus (when they get around to fixing her gold) are probably the only heroes that can strongly justify taking their Gold skill over a 20% boost in power. I have covered this in detail in another post.
Why is my Mandrake 9* and only level 55? Because that’s what he was in early July when I used him as my main (piloted) DPS. I didn’t take the 10* because I had only been playing for a month and my supports were all still 4-5k power and so matchmaking would have punished me if I had a 9k Mandrake on the team team (Caine, Nightingale, Keel, Heimlock, etc. are not in the PVP store). Then Panzer was released and I immediately realized how powerful she was (and still is), I used all my gold and heronium to push my panzer as high as I could and I stopped powering up Mandrake because he was now a support character to me, I have a bot playing Mandrake and any power I dump into Mandrake is power that is likely to end up being wasted on an enemy Cast or Fortress - so I made the smart call and stopped powering him up since 7.5k power was still well above the power that my other supports have. There’s no advantage to having him at level 55, I would be just as happy (and he would be the same power) as a 7* level 75… but people just see “LEVEL 55” on a 35k team and assume that it’s some part of my 1337-Hax when its more just an accident of an older meta.
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I didn’t read it, short story cut short, have fun mate I found an amazing broken team, I hope to destroy you, cya
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Instead of nerfing Panzer and Dogface, we need better DPS Bio and Energy heros. Something to combat the healer meta.
Especially bio, they only have 18 hero’s. While energy has 21 and mech 22.
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@Sogui
Apparently you missed my comment in the next post about not needing advice on winning. I racked up over 8200 pvp gems between 11a and 2p today with that build, with Nightingale replacing Ifrit as he ran out of hearts and Clyde replacing the first mech dps to go out. That was at 52k power. Let me know when you get there.
I went ahead and just deleted everything, because I don’t want to interfere with your narrative. In the future, I’d appreciate you thinking before shooting off your mouth. If you’re incapable of that, try to frame your responses without the dripping sarcasm and condescension; it’s neither warranted nor appreciated.
Partially to blame myself but this thread is railroading toward some murky place. @Exarch I was only joking in earnest as I had nothing intellectual to offer to the standpoint. This thread mirrors what has been said in just about 4 other threads(more I’m sure), which seem to have the recurring cast with the same opinions and the same solutions.
Here’s a suggestion. @HHG give us some behind the scenes action. Maybe a status update how you guys will strategize to bring back good ole shoot em ups aside the role warfare fanfare! Give us starved gamers something to work with… a tidbit… a piece… a smidge…a little something something…
@Duke_Zergem
No apology necessary. You did nothing wrong. The smug arrogance of some people just rubs me wrong sometimes. That’s the problem with the internet. I think some of these keyboard warriors should walk into a 1%r biker clubhouse and talk to somebody face to face there in the way they dish our disrespect in here. I’d pay-per-view that show.
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This is true. We need more proper bio. The worse thing is that bio heroes are fairly similar in skills and function (ex. Ghoul = Maven with bomb trap = Mauler). The newer ones like Callidus (heal block) and cinder (Cover synergy) are actually quite interesting but fell short in making pvp interesting. Ifrit actually made bio group go beyond Mandrake. I hope we get more interesting bio peeps.
What about Odachi, Phoenix and Artemis? All vary quite a bit in skills.
Artemis is arguably the highest dps in-game even now and makes short work of a Panzer.
Ask ‘Osric Temper’ how well he does with his.
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Im not trying to diss on Bio heroes. I love my Artemis as well. But they’re all sliced quite similarly unlike in mech (with Razorback, dogface, caine) and energy (ex. oracle, hivemind, halo). You can just look at the variety of skills they offer vs Bio (Usually bio are either healers, or damage based, but not quite up there). I’m concurring on the need for more bio heroes as stated by @The_Green_Goblin.
Are you saying we don’t more bio heroes considering we have a 3-4 hero differential relative to the other two elements? And that the topic of this thread is how Panzer and Dogface are OP. Can Artemis, Phoenix or Odachi counter them on equal footing? Debatable but doubtful data wise.
Sorry if my statement sounded sweeping. Lol the internet needs to chill.
I don’t think your statement was sweeping … or otherwise … was just putting out there some of what I believe a strong heroes.
Out of those 3 (Odachi, Phoenix, Artemis) a straight up head to head with Panzer in the first 1min. Only Artemis will come out on top. The others ‘occasionally’ given they have the right support, but not likely.
You can cherry pick bios for diversity as well, eg; Artemis, Mandrake, Callidus.
Looking through the class types Bio actually has the least number of healers. Partial or otherwise (excluding shield’ers or self healers)
Energy: Oracle, Flatline, Gammond, Hivemind(minimal), Halo, Nightinggale, Surge(minimal),
Mech: Caine, Keel, Matador, Savage, Operator, Hardscope
Bio: Ifrit, Heimlock, Mandrake, Moss, Francoise
I may have missed someone in that listing.
There are three big Problems with PvP. It is the min maxing and, I know I will get attacked by some for that) Panzer. If you go against a Platinum Panzer, no matter which level the first 30 seconds are just run and hide and roll and hide and roll and run. She can kill every! hero no matter which loadout you play within the first 30 seconds. For me a match starts after 30 seconds, before it is just playing hide and seek with Panzer. The third problem is the lack of proper heals. After Nightingale, Irfit and Heimlock are down, whos left to provide good heal? Keel does good, Matador does have good heal but is huge, there for easy to hit, does no damage and has a long cooldown. You can only play one proper loadout. If this team is down and you want to play another one you don´t stand a chance against a decent team.
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I have no response for what can be done with the Min/Maxing, I know the Devs have been putting in time to figure this issue out, and I’m actually hopeful that they do more with the Draft Mode and Normalization in PvP that they mentioned as that’d actually make PvP competitive and super interesting to me, so I’ll wait and see what happens there (and leave the solution to the Devs to figure out).
If you take a slightly beefier BioChem damage dealer, then you don’t have to “dodge panzer” I use Phoenix all the time and I’ve beaten Panzer comps (that out power my comp) quite often, and until last week where I put a lot of effort into increasing her grade, my phoenix was lower grade than most Panzers I’ve run into (mine was Plat-0 vs Plat-1 or more Panzers).
as for healers, the 3 you mentioned aren’t overly “better” than many of the other healers available to choose from:
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Nightingale’s only real benefit as a healer is that she has fast heals, and she gains this benefit at the cost of heal strength (and also time it takes 6 seconds to get the full heal amount)
Ifrit’s heal is okay, but it’s primarily a single target heal. there are better heals out there. - Heimlock’s recent rebalance made him become more of an “off healer” than a “Main Healer” because his actual healing went down, but gained the ability to enhance other sources of healing
- Ifrit’s heal is instant yes, but it’s total is barely larger than Nightingale’s heal (which seems to balance out the fact that his heal can’t overheal… as any overhealing bounces to a new hero)
And to answer your question about “Who’s left to provide good healing?”:
- Moss does amazing heals (his kit is hands down the best healing kit in the game, nobody has stronger raw healing than Moss, as 3 of his 4 abilities are centered around healing,
- his Bronze has the second biggest “instant heal” amount (per target) in the game (outside of Flatline’s Clear), and it hits everyone on his team except himself (so does more raw healing than Flatline’s Clear), AND any overhealing it does is translated into bonus health for a short while), This comes at the cost of it having a long charge up time. (Only one who could rival this would be Matador, who’s heal is smaller and slower but always hits the entire team)
- his Silver is probably the absolute strongest Heal over time in the entire game (in terms of raw numbers applied to any one target) and it can theoretically hit multiple people (at the cost of them needing to stay in the “healing jacuuzi”) and thirst in healing speed (behind Keel and then Operator’s heals)
- His Plat heals is a nice passive heal that gives some minor sustain to aggressive team comps
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Caine once he’s at Gold, the combination of his fast abilities and the damage they prevent + healing they output, make him an even better “fast healer” than even Nightingale (this comes at the cost of the enemy knowing who will be healed since his “heals” need to be applied premptively). You can also combine his plat with Moss’ for some great synergy that increases both your team’s offense and their sustain (since the bonus crit chance stacks)
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Flatline Her Clear does the absolute biggest “instant heal” amount per target in the entire game, and it also has the ability to revive a dead ally… that’s huge. And her Stay With Me is an amazing Gold that I’ve seen do some amazingly clutch saves, and it does really good healing for herself and her target.
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Keel Her healing is amazing once she’s unlocked her Gold ability, and she’s the only character in the game (currently?) that can repair cover… even after it’s been destroyed, which is pretty big for your team’s defensiveness.
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Matador His Heal over time has good strength and also has a lot of other benefits while it’s “on”, and the fact that he’s “big and easy to hit” is the trade off… he’s probably one of the most durable healers in the game, possibly only Rivaled by Heimlock (also another “big and easy to hit” healer who does well.
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Operator is a good spot healer, with some Disruption and self sustain (at the cost of a short channeled heal), he just needs some TLC from the Devs to buff some of his stats and his Plat.
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Hiveminde His healing isn’t the biggest (and would definitely classify him as an “off-healer”… his Leech Drone is a very low maintenance ability… it’s a “fire and forget” and it does some offense and helps with sustain, and he can have 3 of his drones up at a time, which stacks and helps .
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Oracle Is an excellent Aggressive support that provides great team healing (makes all of your character’s abilities charge twice as fast and anytime any ally casts an ability, it grants a team heal… just picture that paired with some of the faster ability heroes… like Caine or Nightingale, or even getting someone like Moss who’s main downside is the charge time of his heal)
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Halo Halo’s healing is also really good, because her Gold makes it so that most of your team gets topped up whenever someone starts getting focused on (but there can be a lot of overhealing or wasted heals, if the enemy focuses on only one of your heroes, and her Gold doesn’t really help the person who needs the healing the most, unless the enemy is dumb and gets more than 1 hero below 50%) her Bronze heal has good strength and makes Halo herself more durable, but it’s downsides are that the proper timing of it’s use needs some getting used to, and can be countered by a high DPS character focusing on burning down her shield… but overall, even with those weaknesses, she can output some good healing… ESPECIALLY if you’ve got a reviver on your team, since that refreshes her gold whenever someone dies.
So there are plenty of good - great options on the healing front, Of the 3 you posted, I would say only Heimlock has a chance of being in my “top 4” (alongside Moss, Flatline and Caine) healers. Nightingale might be my #5. I would saw that of all the types of characters in the game… the Healers are in the best place, balance wise as a group… (Tanks would be the second best, but they can still use a little TLC) my current issue is that the other types of characters (DPS, Crowd Controllers, non-healing Supports) need to be given the same treatement healers got in the past few months.
I would say the best healers are Heimlock, Ifrit, Nightingale, and Caine. Not necessary because they have the “biggest heals”, but because they have good health, damage, or utility to go along with them. Overall they are just really strong when you take all of that and then also factor in their healing or shielding power.
Moss, Flatline, and Keel are probably the second tier. Moss simply because he has weak damage and no other real utility besides healing. He also seems to die really fast (though I never see a 10* plat version so this may change at the top power). Flatline is also pretty easy to kill with no self heal or regen and being energy, making her more susceptible to Dog and Panzer fire. The only real reason she has become popular is because of the revive circle jerk her and Ifrit have created. Without Ifrit she’s simply not that good and was almost never used before he came along.
After that, all the other healers are pretty much garbage. Matador’s heal has a long CD for how much it heals. Gammond’s heal is just weak. Operator doesn’t really offer anything except a mediocre heal. Hivemind is usually focused down right away and doesn’t have time to ramp up his drones, which he needs to survive.
Couldn’t agree more.
Many things have been said that are true or not and I didn’t read everything.
My main concern with pvp is not min max as that is a minority. However sometimes it feel that the majority of games is against Dogface and or Panzer and three to four healers and support. And yes probably the lack of dps intelligence in the bots plays a role in that. Which as a problem is being amplified by rezzers as they have to die first so you can’t follow AI dps.
Remove all resurection abilities from the game?
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As Deathleech statet the problem the other healers have is that they only provid heal and add nothing else to your team. And most of them have a long charging time. You somehow have to survive the first 30 seconds of Panzers damage and no heroes except for Caine and Nightingale provide a heal in that time.
Moss for example has a great heal, but it takes forever to charge. Most of the time your first hero is already dead when his heal is ready. Same with Flatline and Dogface/Panzer kill her within the first 15 seconds.
Rygel in your discussion (great discussion by the way) you missed out one important hero.
Gammond
Yup, that you missed him out I’m sure was deliberate cos he’s been nerfed so badly that he hardly even counts as healer. So if he’s not a healer, can he be classified as DPS or support? Nope not really… It’s sad that he’s been cut down so much that he hardly counts as anything anymore.
There are also other sort-of ‘healers’ out there, Halo, Hardscope and Fracoise. I wouldn’t say they are specialist healers like the rest of your list is focused on … but for what it’s worth, I’d be happy to hear your thoughts on these heroes as well if you have the time.
Francoise needs some set up to work hard scope is a great multitool hero gammond is just kinda meh
If a pvp match begins before the reset, the losses should not be applied to post reset. I usually try to guage it so this doesn’t happen, but matchmaking sometimes takes 20-30 seconds before you find a team, which when coupled with heal wars, can push you over the reset timer. Any hearts lost during the fight then get applied to after the reset. This is just a bad mechanic.
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