@Sogui Your input on Heroes are not valid for the common player, just for the min/maxer’s as yourself. You are hiding down in power 35k meeting mostly inexperienced players which have few Heroes to choose from. You do so by Keeping your 9 star Panzer at Silver level, and your gold Mandrake at LvL55. I don’t mind people using the boundaries of the game, but keep bragging about how many games you win down there and try to talk about that Ifrit/Flat/Cain/Night/DPS is not meta and boring gives me a bad taste.
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It’s ways offtopic, except for the few minmaxing players, please stop spreading confusion and lies.
You’re only here to help yourself instead of giving good feedback
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As many of the other telling us that Irfit is noch OP you totally ignore his Showtime and his Gold, which are even more game breaking than his Platinum. Your killing order is good in theory, but if a Platinum Panzer focuses on my damage dealer I need to save him first, before doing damage with him. The time I lose while doing so is enough for Caine to cast his skills, for Irfit to actiavte his Showtime etc.
And your examples…the comparisons are really made up and sometimes even wrong. Phalanx Gold shield is only 1/3 of the heal Irfits Plat provide after the revive. Caine and Vanguard only shiel one Hero at a time, so you can play around the shields and even influence who gets them, Moss damages himself with his heal and it has a long cooldown. Yes it is big and can be a turnaround in a close match, but he is an easy victim and is often dead or nearly dead untill he gets to use his heal.
You experiment with teams to beat Flatline/Irfit/Caine (In my opinion the teams with Flatline are the easiest to beat, because she is down in seconds, there are harder ones, for example with Keel and Nightingale), because you have to find ways to beat this team. But that is not how PvP should be. It shuldn´t be based around playing a specific team or trying to build a team to beat it. There should be a variety of teams that are good for wins. I get my share of wins against Irfit teams, but as soon as my A-team is down, I have to be very very lucky to even get a kill that isnt revived.
And please consider that not everyone can choose out of every hero on 10* Platinum. The normal highlevel PvP player has 10-20 Platinum heroes and not all of them on 10* and has to build a team out of this pool.
I do not know how often you play against players on your power level, but i guess it is not that often, given hat only few have the same power level than you. So you mostly have an advantage or play bots, which maes it much easier to win.
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I agree with almost everything, except the bots part, I don’t know who or what he fights, I can’t have a judgement on that
about 2/3s of my PvP matches are actually against players who field a similar power team of 5 as I do. (as total roster pool power doesn’t really dictate average PvP team power)
Yes, I have the advantage of having a bigger pool to choose from, but many of the successful team comps I draft, make use of the most popular heroes or heroes who are or were recently bonused, thus have had many people in the high end PvP play upgrade them into viable levels). And yes his Showtime is strong, but not unbeatable, and his gold only comes into play when you kill him… which is why I recommend killing him last or near last.
I’m not saying playing against an Ifrit isn’t frustrating, it can be at times… but it’s not so OP that it’s oppressive or unbeatable.
And I’m definitely not saying the devs should take some heroes that are weaker and boost them up to viable levels, but I can’t imagine it’s an easy or quick process to get heroes changed in a balanced and healthy (for the meta) manner… and Ifrit’s only been out for less than a month. but shrug we’ll wait and see how things go.
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Mind sharing some of these teams that easily defeat the Ifrit/Flatline/Panzer meta?
I can beat it pretty easily too if I min/max. But in normal play? Nope, not unless they are missing a key hero, they are really bad at the game, OR I vastly out power them.
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It is not unbeatable. But Halo+Baron wasn´t unbeatable too. I even won about half of my matches against this combo, as I am doing now against Irfit too. But depending on the other heroes build around, there are some that are ubeatable for my team and that shouldn´t be. I should be able to beat all combos with my team. I win 90% or more against other teams, but loose half or more than half against Irfit teams. There clearly is an unbalance and it is because of Irfit. Not as a stand alone hero, but with the teams you can build around him.
There is no need to nerf him to a Gammond level, but if Showtime has a longer cooldown, so you have some more time for clear attacks, would give back more balance in PvP, without making him useless. The first nerf made him beatable, the second one should put gim from above A class to the level of the other top PvP heroes. And hopefully the pool of usefull PvP heroes will grwo too with the next update.
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I’ve played intensive PVP from lvl 5 to 70. I agree most teams aren’t like mine but my observations of what works and what doesn’t across 20,000+ games is what led me to (successfully) perfect my teams.
On the other hand I think the least useful input is from people who play at 60k+ where all their heroes are platinum and 8*+. From 8k to 40k you will run into countless opponents who also try to min/max, your effectiveness as a PVP competitor is determined in how well-made your own team is. Once you get your team power so incredibly high that ALL your opponents ALWAYS have plats, then min/max stops becoming an issue because you never have to deal with the “min”.
I’m sure Ifrit might be attractive at that level because other healer plats like Heimlock and Keel look downright pathetic compared to passive revive. But my experiences better reflect those of the average poster here since below the “Plat-Only” team threshold - min/max allows only the most efficient teams to consistently win, and simply put - Ifrit is not very efficient. However the vast majority of players are not competing at the “plat only” level and thus face a more competitive landscape where opponents have more flexibility in creating the ultimate PVP team.
That’s also why people like you (and Rygel) believe that Panzer is balanced - but the reality is that if you’re competing below “Plat Only” territory and aren’t using Panzer, and you hit a competent team where the strongest enemy hero is a Panzer, there’s close to a 0% chance of you winning. I know this because my winrate against non-Panzer teams has been 99.9% since she was released (12,000 games). You say most people aren’t min-maxers but at 35-40k power most of my opponents are trying very similar tactics and anyone who isn’t is going to watch their hearts vanish quickly.
I’m not saying you (or Rygel) are wrong about your observations. It’s just that the game must become VERY different when you play at a power level where everyone has plats - and it’s really, really silly to argue that your experience at the Top .1% of power is more relevant to the average player than my experience leveling alongside the other 99.9% for the last 3 months.
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See, I feel that your expectation that your comment
“I should be able to beat all combos with my team”
would actually lead to/perpetuate an unhealthy (and extremely static) PvP meta. I’m no Game Designer, but I have played a lot of hero/character centric games (such as League of Legends, Overwatch, Paladins, Smite, DotA 2, Competitive Pokemon… hell even things CCGs like Hearthstone, Magic The Gathering and Pokemon CCG), and can imagine that if any ONE Team Composition has a really good chance (75%+) of beating any and all team comps/combos that can be thrown at it… then that team comp is actually very OP and unbalanced. If you want to have a nice dynamic meta for a PvP match, there should be comps that clearly have a big advantage over others.
That is why games like League have a fairly dynamic and evolving meta, where if a dominant comp or Champion or combo emerges, more people adopt that strategy, making it more likely that you’ll run into it… so there are players who then are able to experiment and find answers to said combo… and once a counter strategy/comp is discovered to counter the dominant strategy… the counter comp will slowly grow in popularity and counter the dominant comp… thus shifting the meta, since people will stop playing the dominant comp and start experimenting on perfecting the counter comp… thus leading to new dominant strategies… thus kicking off the need for the player base to find a new strategy counter the new dominant strategy (keeping the cycle going).
All the healthiest, long lasting PvP games out there, have had metas like this where it is a constant state of evolution/adaptation to the current state of things.
It’s just kinda tricky in Hero Hunters as it stands, because it’s tough to experiment and figure out what would work vs the dominant strategies. (Tho maybe the Devs are exploring how to make it easier, with changes they’ve made like including their PvP Duel stuff). Hopefully they have something in the works to further change up what they already changed up with the Health Update (as like it or not, I would say it definitely shifted the meta from where it’s been for months… I hardly ever see the insane 4 healing tanks + someone else, comps that were super popular for months before the health update, it just shifted to a different meta and is now sitting in the new dominant comp/combo).
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there are things like:
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Pheonix is actually a surprisingly strong pick to counter Ifrit, Caine and the Mech DPS characters that are very popular currently… and she does enough damage to even be a threat to Flatline, despite her elemental typing. (If used correctly, her Incinerate can absolutely delete a lot of enemies on a full channel… she can 100-0 someone like Razorback, even with light-moderate healing applied to him)
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The scary Disorient comp I’ve been looking into also has frightening implications (Mauler + Halo + anyone else who can Disorient… and yes Ifrit is a really good candidate for this comp, but it’s a much riskier/easier to counter comp… but still works really well vs the standard Ifrit/Flatline/Caine comp)
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I’ve been exploring other comps… and the standard Ifrit comps all have a similar weakness… they tend to lack really good non-single target heals (yes Ifrit’s overheal bounces… but it’s not good at keeping a lot of teammates up and healthy), so team comps that can lay down a LOT of damage across the entire team actually is tough for the Caine/Flatline/Ifrit comps… and yes sometimes you see an ifrit paired with a Halo, but Halo’s team heal was nerfed recently, so you can force your way past it.
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Going with 2-3 dedicated DPS characters also can burn through enemies before the healing + revives kicks in fully, and you break can break their momentum.
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Heroes with Silences and Stuns hit the Flatline revive and the Ifrit Showtime and Caine abilities a LOT as well.
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Marking him with Nightingale works quite well too
It only works if the opponent isn´t running Panzer or Dogface or both. They will kill your DPS heroes to fast.
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The fact that most of the replies about stopping Ifrit come back to “well their Panzer/Dogface will just kill you faster” should say more about the state of those 2 heroes in this metagame rather than something about a mediocre backline support.
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yea, Marks are also really good (aka: Nightingale… I can’t remember off the top of my head if there are any other heroes that actively Mark, I know there are NPCs just not heroes.)
And yea I agree, the multi DPS is riskier… but there are some that work well vs Panzer/Dogface, like Odachi and Pheonix. (Artemis only if you can get her a good set of protectors, as she hits like a truck but she is VERY squishy).
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Chesterfield marks, and ifrit, but that’s team based and due to stealth, maybe I miss one?
By beeing able to beat i didn´t mean I have to beat, or that the chances are even against every team. But if I play well I should have a chance to beat every team. Right now if someone has a decent Irfit team I can only win if I get really lucky or the opponent plays bad.
WIth the current state the PvP has there is no self regulation. We have so many problems with the matchmaking and such a small pool of heroes to choose of, that you can´t build teams which work well overall and against Irfit. If we had a pool of 30-40 decent Heroes to choose of, that would be different. But right now we have about 15 Heroes that you can use. Sure you can use Mauler or Phoenix and they may do well against Irfit in a specific team. But these teams will get beaten by many other teams without a chance of winning.
We don´t have meta teams, because someone figured out a smart combination. We have meta teams, because one hero is stronger than the others and you can build nearly unbeatable teams around him. If you take out Irfit, you currently have no meta team. And right now there is no way to break this meta if it is played well.
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I also agree Sogui, I think a big issue is that the roster of viable non-mech heroes is a bit more limited (I still say Odachi, Pheonix and a few others are viable, but they are less popular picks atm).
and @Kraterios I don’t think pointing out @Sogui’s roster is really helping further the debate that is happening in this thread… Sogui does have a good point about how a healthy Meta game needs to take into account more than the top tier of play (60k+ teams), tho End game PvP is definitely important (since eventually we’ll all be at that stage of play), early - mid game PvP meta health is important too, as that is where you learn how things work in PvP and where new challengers to the tops of leaderboards come from. So I would want the Devs to figure some way to make things work at all levels of play (I sometimes pop down to my Alt accounts to experience silver - gold play as well, and it really is vastly different than Platinum-gold play)
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oh yea, thanks for reminding me… I keep forgetting that Buff that Chesterfield got to his Flare ability, I forgot it was an AoE Mark now. Derp.
Another person I’ve been experimenting with has been Callidus… as she has a good team wide Anti-heal ability… She has some potential, BUT she’s just not quite there yet, in terms of viability/strength… so she will be iffy at best (unless she gets some balancing TLC, but who knows when that’ll happen since we’re currently IN a Morlock month, so idk if the Devs adjust factions so soon after their featured months)
Artemis and Prophet can also mark.
I know English isn’t your first language but you need to slow down and read before you start spamming images of my profile, again, in the same thread.
I’m pointing out that any team at 60k+ is going to be almost all platinums and therefore the balance debate between STARS v. PROMOTIONS goes out the window. It’s impossible to effectively min-max at a power level that requires almost all your heroes to be close to their absolute MAX.
My team is obviously not 60k and I never claimed it was, I’m just illustrating that balance is very different when someone’s power level is so high that people running “min-max” comps literally cannot be matched with them.